M/MUMPS-4b - Revision history

DavidWhitten: /* Response */

2022-10-21T20:15:21Z

Response

@@ Line 69: / Line 69: @@
   This is obviously a quite personal prospective into technologic history and part of a personal story. If you have questions or feel the need to correct me you are welcome. With my location in Vienna (Austria) I always had the impression to watch decisions in Cambridge, Maynard, Boston from far far  away at the border of the Milky Way. wink
-== Response ==
+== Response Rich Taylor · Aug 29, 2017 to Robert Cemper ==
- Rich Taylor · Aug 29, 2017
   Robert,
@@ Line 78: / Line 78: @@
   Thanks again for the history.

DavidWhitten at 20:04, 21 October 2022

2022-10-21T20:04:16Z

DavidWhitten at 20:02, 21 October 2022

2022-10-21T20:02:26Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:02, 21 October 2022
Line 8:		Line 8:
	#Caché #InterSystems IRIS		#Caché #InterSystems IRIS

	This is a rather personal view on the history before Caché.		This is a rather personal view on the history before Caché.

	It is in no sense meant to compete with the excellent books from Mike Kadow discussed in an earlier article. We have different history and so this is meant to create a different prospective of the past.		It is in no sense meant to compete with the excellent books from Mike Kadow discussed in an earlier article. We have different history and so this is meant to create a different prospective of the past.

	The whole story started in 1966 at MGH (Mass.General Hospital) on a PDP-7 Ser.#103 with 8K of memory (18-bit words) [ today = 18K byte ] as a spare system.		The whole story started in 1966 at MGH (Mass.General Hospital) on a PDP-7 Ser.#103 with 8K of memory (18-bit words) [ today = 18K byte ] as a spare system.

	"Serial Number 103 - was located in the basement of the now demolished Thayer Building, currently [2014] the site of the Cox Cancer Center at MGH."		"Serial Number 103 - was located in the basement of the now demolished Thayer Building, currently [2014] the site of the Cox Cancer Center at MGH."

	"Neil Papparlardo and Curt Marble under the guidance of Octo Barnett developed and released the initial software on this machine."		"Neil Papparlardo and Curt Marble under the guidance of Octo Barnett developed and released the initial software on this machine."
	They named it MUMPS. (source) </pre>		They named it MUMPS. (source) </pre>
	http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7no103systeminfo.html		http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7no103systeminfo.html

	The language itself was rather close to old style Basic.		The language itself was rather close to old style Basic.
	But there were remarkable improvements over other programming languages:		But there were remarkable improvements over other programming languages:

	The big idea was to store and retrieve persistent data without the need to deal with a file system. This was an enormous step forward at that time compared to other systems where storing and reading persistent data could easily take 30%+ of your available memory and no idea if sorting, indexing, ....		The big idea was to store and retrieve persistent data without the need to deal with a file system. This was an enormous step forward at that time compared to other systems where storing and reading persistent data could easily take 30%+ of your available memory and no idea if sorting, indexing, ....
	No strong data types anymore or data types imposed by names (ALGOL, FORTRAN, ..) an endless source for formal errors and conversions.		No strong data types anymore or data types imposed by names (ALGOL, FORTRAN, ..) an endless source for formal errors and conversions.

	Dynamic (sparse) arrays without frozen structure and pre-allocated half empty space in memory		Dynamic (sparse) arrays without frozen structure and pre-allocated half empty space in memory

	Indexing persistent data with variable length structured indices (subscripts) allowing easy sorting, grouping, subgrouping,..		Indexing persistent data with variable length structured indices (subscripts) allowing easy sorting, grouping, subgrouping,..

	You may want to compare it to old code in COBOL, FORTRAN or PL/1 to estimate the dimension of that revolution.		You may want to compare it to old code in COBOL, FORTRAN or PL/1 to estimate the dimension of that revolution.

	The new software took its way along fast moving hardware development until it reached PDP-11 and was finally known as MUMPS 4b.		The new software took its way along fast moving hardware development until it reached PDP-11 and was finally known as MUMPS 4b.

	1978 was a remarkable year:		* 1978 was a remarkable year:
	* InterSystems was founded by Terry Ragon		*: InterSystems was founded by Terry Ragon
	* DEC rolled out its first VAX-11 Cluster (at Carnegie Mellon ?)		*: DEC rolled out its first VAX-11 Cluster (at Carnegie Mellon ?)
	* DEC completed DSM-11 (Digital Standard Mumps) :		*: DEC completed DSM-11 (Digital Standard Mumps) :
	*: Besides following the rather fresh standard it had new Global Module		*:: Besides following the rather fresh standard it had new Global Module
	*: that improved storage performance radically.		*:: that improved storage performance radically.
	*: It easily outperformed any other DataBase named product by magnitudes.		*:: It easily outperformed any other DataBase named product by magnitudes.
	*: The author of this Global module was a brilliant engineer with international experience: Terry Ragon.		*:: The author of this Global module was a brilliant engineer with international experience: Terry Ragon.
	* I myself joined DEC also in 1978 as Sales and Support Engineer for DSM-11 meeting Terry at the first support training in Maynard.

	DEC ~~at that time was completely high with the new VAX~~-11 ~~and~~ the ~~VAX-Cluster~~.		I myself joined DEC also in 1978 as Sales and Support Engineer for DSM-11 meeting Terry at the first support training in Maynard.

	~~The~~ new ~~high performing DB was ignored~~ and ~~its power totally misunderstood~~.		DEC at that time was completely high with the new VAX-11 and the VAX-Cluster.

	~~All requests from software developers to have DSM native on VAX to take advantage of the~~ new ~~box were~~ ignored.		The new high performing DB was ignored and its power totally misunderstood.

	~~This persistent ignorance of customer~~ requests ~~was the base to encourage a customer of mine~~ to ~~invite me:~~		All requests from software developers to have DSM native on VAX to take advantage of the new box were ignored.
	~~: "If they don't do it join us and we will do it !" [How often~~ have ~~you got the offer to write an OS like this from scratch?]~~
	~~: I just couldn't resist and I joined and we wrote it up from point zero~~ on ~~bare boned~~ VAX~~-750.~~
	~~: The OS was named VISOS and lived as long as~~ the ~~supported VAX models existed~~.

	~~Some time later DEC presented DSM as layered product on top~~ of ~~VMS. In the beginning performance~~ was ~~dictated by~~ the ~~underlying RMS and didn~~'t ~~reflect~~ the ~~gain in processing power. It moved out of my scope and~~ I ~~didn~~'t ~~care about anymore~~. ~~Years later the best on my opinion that DEC did~~ was~~: They sold its unloved product DSM to InterSystems. Not too~~ long ~~before they were sold themselves~~.		: This persistent ignorance of customer requests was the base to encourage a customer of mine to invite me:
			:: "If they don't do it join us and we will do it !" [How often have you got the offer to write an OS like this from scratch?]
			:: I just couldn't resist and I joined and we wrote it up from point zero on bare boned VAX-750.
			:: The OS was named VISOS and lived as long as the supported VAX models existed.

	~~When I joined InterSystems 20 years~~ later ~~I found~~ in ~~Caché again so many details~~ I ~~had implement myself~~. ~~So I could enjoy a very warm feeling of being at home~~.		Some time later DEC presented DSM as layered product on top of VMS. In the beginning performance was dictated by the underlying RMS and didn't reflect the gain in processing power. It moved out of my scope and I didn't care about anymore. Years later the best on my opinion that DEC did was: They sold its unloved product DSM to InterSystems. Not too long before they were sold themselves.

	Caché ~~is today far far away from all its predecessors but still source compatible~~. ~~The power~~ of ~~Globals is still there. There might be only few constellations where you can't outperform a competing DB~~.		When I joined InterSystems 20 years later I found in Caché again so many details I had implement myself. So I could enjoy a very warm feeling of being at home.

	My favorite example out of many others:		Caché is today far far away from all its predecessors but still source compatible. The power of Globals is still there. There might be only few constellations where you can't outperform a competing DB.
	: GAIA Project run by European Space Agency (ESA)
			:My favorite example out of many others:
			:: GAIA Project run by European Space Agency (ESA)

	https://www.intersystems.com/de/library/library-item/european-space-agency-chooses-intersystems-cach-database-for-gaia-mission-to-map-milky-way/		https://www.intersystems.com/de/library/library-item/european-space-agency-chooses-intersystems-cach-database-for-gaia-mission-to-map-milky-way/
	~~<pre>~~
	This is obviously a quite personal prospective into technologic history and part of a personal story.		This is obviously a quite personal prospective into technologic history and part of a personal story. If you have questions or feel the need to correct me you are welcome. With my location in Vienna (Austria) I always had the impression to watch decisions in Cambridge, Maynard, Boston from far far away at the border of the Milky Way. wink
	If you have questions or feel the need to correct me you are welcome.
	With my location in Vienna (Austria) I always had the impression to watch
	decisions in Cambridge, Maynard, Boston from far far away at the border of the Milky Way. wink
	~~</pre>~~
	== Response ==		== Response ==
	Rich Taylor · Aug 29, 2017		Rich Taylor · Aug 29, 2017

DavidWhitten: /* From The Roots to InterSystem */

2022-10-21T19:56:47Z

From The Roots to InterSystem

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:56, 21 October 2022
Line 2:		Line 2:

	== From The Roots to InterSystem ==		== From The Roots to InterSystem ==
			https://community.intersystems.com/post/roots-intersystems

	* https://community.intersystems.com/post/roots-intersystems
	~~<pre>~~
	Robert Cemper · Aug 28, 2017 3m read		Robert Cemper · Aug 28, 2017 3m read
	From The Roots to InterSystems		From The Roots to InterSystems
	#Caché #InterSystems IRIS		#Caché #InterSystems IRIS

	This is a rather personal view on the history before Caché.		This is a rather personal view on the history before Caché.
	It is in no sense meant to compete with the excellent books from Mike Kadow discussed in an earlier article.
	We have different history and so this is meant to create a different prospective of the past.		It is in no sense meant to compete with the excellent books from Mike Kadow discussed in an earlier article. We have different history and so this is meant to create a different prospective of the past.

	The whole story started in 1966 at MGH (Mass.General Hospital) on a PDP-7 Ser.#103 with 8K of memory (18-bit words) [ today = 18K byte ] as a spare system.		The whole story started in 1966 at MGH (Mass.General Hospital) on a PDP-7 Ser.#103 with 8K of memory (18-bit words) [ today = 18K byte ] as a spare system.
Line 71:		Line 71:
	decisions in Cambridge, Maynard, Boston from far far away at the border of the Milky Way. wink		decisions in Cambridge, Maynard, Boston from far far away at the border of the Milky Way. wink
	</pre>		</pre>
			== Response ==
			Rich Taylor · Aug 29, 2017
			Robert,

			Great history lesson! I have a question for you though. As you were there at the beginning or close to it perhaps you might have some insight. I came from a background in MultiValued databases (aka PICK, Universe, Unidata) joining InterSystems in 2008 when they were pushing Cache's ability to migrate those systems.
			From the beginning I was amazed at the parallel evolution of both platforms. In fact when I was preparing for my first interviews, having not heard of Cache before, I thought it was some derivative of PICK. Conceptually both MUMPS and PICK share a lot of commonality. Differing in implementation of course. I have long harbored the belief that there had to be some common heritage.
			Some white papers or other IP that influenced both. Would you have any knowledge on the how the original developers of MUMPS arrived at the design concepts they embraced? Does the name Don Nelson ring a bell?

			Thanks again for the history.

DavidWhitten: Created page with "* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2203767/pdf/procascamc00011-0467.pdf == From The Roots to InterSystem == * https://community.intersystems.com/post/roots-inter..."

2022-10-21T19:50:06Z

Created page with "* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2203767/pdf/procascamc00011-0467.pdf == From The Roots to InterSystem == * https://community.intersystems.com/post/roots-inter..."

New page

* https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2203767/pdf/procascamc00011-0467.pdf

== From The Roots to InterSystem ==

* https://community.intersystems.com/post/roots-intersystems
<pre>
Robert Cemper · Aug 28, 2017 3m read
From The Roots to InterSystems
#Caché #InterSystems IRIS
This is a rather personal view on the history before Caché.
It is in no sense meant to compete with the excellent books from Mike Kadow discussed in an earlier article.
We have different history and so this is meant to create a different prospective of the past.

The whole story started in 1966 at MGH (Mass.General Hospital) on a PDP-7 Ser.#103 with 8K of memory (18-bit words) [ today = 18K byte ] as a spare system.

"Serial Number 103 - was located in the basement of the now demolished Thayer Building, currently [2014] the site of the Cox Cancer Center at MGH."

"Neil Papparlardo and Curt Marble under the guidance of Octo Barnett developed and released the initial software on this machine."
They named it MUMPS. (source) </pre>
http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7no103systeminfo.html

The language itself was rather close to old style Basic.
But there were remarkable improvements over other programming languages:

The big idea was to store and retrieve persistent data without the need to deal with a file system. This was an enormous step forward at that time compared to other systems where storing and reading persistent data could easily take 30%+ of your available memory and no idea if sorting, indexing, ....
No strong data types anymore or data types imposed by names (ALGOL, FORTRAN, ..) an endless source for formal errors and conversions.

Dynamic (sparse) arrays without frozen structure and pre-allocated half empty space in memory

Indexing persistent data with variable length structured indices (subscripts) allowing easy sorting, grouping, subgrouping,..

You may want to compare it to old code in COBOL, FORTRAN or PL/1 to estimate the dimension of that revolution.

The new software took its way along fast moving hardware development until it reached PDP-11 and was finally known as MUMPS 4b.

1978 was a remarkable year:
* InterSystems was founded by Terry Ragon
* DEC rolled out its first VAX-11 Cluster (at Carnegie Mellon ?)
* DEC completed DSM-11 (Digital Standard Mumps) :
*: Besides following the rather fresh standard it had new Global Module
*: that improved storage performance radically.
*: It easily outperformed any other DataBase named product by magnitudes.
*: The author of this Global module was a brilliant engineer with international experience: Terry Ragon.
* I myself joined DEC also in 1978 as Sales and Support Engineer for DSM-11 meeting Terry at the first support training in Maynard.

DEC at that time was completely high with the new VAX-11 and the VAX-Cluster.

The new high performing DB was ignored and its power totally misunderstood.

All requests from software developers to have DSM native on VAX to take advantage of the new box were ignored.

This persistent ignorance of customer requests was the base to encourage a customer of mine to invite me:
: "If they don't do it join us and we will do it !" [How often have you got the offer to write an OS like this from scratch?]
: I just couldn't resist and I joined and we wrote it up from point zero on bare boned VAX-750.
: The OS was named VISOS and lived as long as the supported VAX models existed.

Some time later DEC presented DSM as layered product on top of VMS. In the beginning performance was dictated by the underlying RMS and didn't reflect the gain in processing power. It moved out of my scope and I didn't care about anymore. Years later the best on my opinion that DEC did was: They sold its unloved product DSM to InterSystems. Not too long before they were sold themselves.

When I joined InterSystems 20 years later I found in Caché again so many details I had implement myself. So I could enjoy a very warm feeling of being at home.

Caché is today far far away from all its predecessors but still source compatible. The power of Globals is still there. There might be only few constellations where you can't outperform a competing DB.

My favorite example out of many others:
: GAIA Project run by European Space Agency (ESA)

https://www.intersystems.com/de/library/library-item/european-space-agency-chooses-intersystems-cach-database-for-gaia-mission-to-map-milky-way/
<pre>
This is obviously a quite personal prospective into technologic history and part of a personal story.
If you have questions or feel the need to correct me you are welcome.
With my location in Vienna (Austria) I always had the impression to watch
decisions in Cambridge, Maynard, Boston from far far away at the border of the Milky Way. wink
</pre>

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:04, 21 October 2022
Line 3:		Line 3:
	== From The Roots to InterSystem ==		== From The Roots to InterSystem ==
	https://community.intersystems.com/post/roots-intersystems		https://community.intersystems.com/post/roots-intersystems

	Robert Cemper · Aug 28, 2017 3m read		Robert Cemper · Aug 28, 2017 3m read
	From The Roots to InterSystems		From The Roots to InterSystems
	#Caché #InterSystems IRIS		#Caché #InterSystems IRIS

	This is a rather personal view on the history before Caché.		This is a rather personal view on the history before Caché.

	It is in no sense meant to compete with the excellent books from Mike Kadow discussed in an earlier article. We have different history and so this is meant to create a different prospective of the past.		It is in no sense meant to compete with the excellent books from Mike Kadow discussed in an earlier article. We have different history and so this is meant to create a different prospective of the past.

	The whole story started in 1966 at MGH (Mass.General Hospital) on a PDP-7 Ser.#103 with 8K of memory (18-bit words) [ today = 18K byte ] as a spare system.		The whole story started in 1966 at MGH (Mass.General Hospital) on a PDP-7 Ser.#103 with 8K of memory (18-bit words) [ today = 18K byte ] as a spare system.

	"Serial Number 103 - was located in the basement of the now demolished Thayer Building, currently [2014] the site of the Cox Cancer Center at MGH."		"Serial Number 103 - was located in the basement of the now demolished Thayer Building, currently [2014] the site of the Cox Cancer Center at MGH."

	"Neil Papparlardo and Curt Marble under the guidance of Octo Barnett developed and released the initial software on this machine."		"Neil Papparlardo and Curt Marble under the guidance of Octo Barnett developed and released the initial software on this machine."
	They named it MUMPS. (source) </pre>		They named it MUMPS. (source) </pre>
	http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7no103systeminfo.html		http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7no103systeminfo.html

	The language itself was rather close to old style Basic.		The language itself was rather close to old style Basic.
	But there were remarkable improvements over other programming languages:		But there were remarkable improvements over other programming languages:

	The big idea was to store and retrieve persistent data without the need to deal with a file system. This was an enormous step forward at that time compared to other systems where storing and reading persistent data could easily take 30%+ of your available memory and no idea if sorting, indexing, ....		The big idea was to store and retrieve persistent data without the need to deal with a file system. This was an enormous step forward at that time compared to other systems where storing and reading persistent data could easily take 30%+ of your available memory and no idea if sorting, indexing, ....
	No strong data types anymore or data types imposed by names (ALGOL, FORTRAN, ..) an endless source for formal errors and conversions.		No strong data types anymore or data types imposed by names (ALGOL, FORTRAN, ..) an endless source for formal errors and conversions.

	Dynamic (sparse) arrays without frozen structure and pre-allocated half empty space in memory		Dynamic (sparse) arrays without frozen structure and pre-allocated half empty space in memory

	Indexing persistent data with variable length structured indices (subscripts) allowing easy sorting, grouping, subgrouping,..		Indexing persistent data with variable length structured indices (subscripts) allowing easy sorting, grouping, subgrouping,..

	You may want to compare it to old code in COBOL, FORTRAN or PL/1 to estimate the dimension of that revolution.		You may want to compare it to old code in COBOL, FORTRAN or PL/1 to estimate the dimension of that revolution.

	The new software took its way along fast moving hardware development until it reached PDP-11 and was finally known as MUMPS 4b.		The new software took its way along fast moving hardware development until it reached PDP-11 and was finally known as MUMPS 4b.

	* 1978 was a remarkable year:		* 1978 was a remarkable year:
	*: InterSystems was founded by Terry Ragon		*: InterSystems was founded by Terry Ragon
Line 42:		Line 42:
	*:: It easily outperformed any other DataBase named product by magnitudes.		*:: It easily outperformed any other DataBase named product by magnitudes.
	*:: The author of this Global module was a brilliant engineer with international experience: Terry Ragon.		*:: The author of this Global module was a brilliant engineer with international experience: Terry Ragon.

	I myself joined DEC also in 1978 as Sales and Support Engineer for DSM-11 meeting Terry at the first support training in Maynard.		I myself joined DEC also in 1978 as Sales and Support Engineer for DSM-11 meeting Terry at the first support training in Maynard.

	DEC at that time was completely high with the new VAX-11 and the VAX-Cluster.		DEC at that time was completely high with the new VAX-11 and the VAX-Cluster.

	The new high performing DB was ignored and its power totally misunderstood.		The new high performing DB was ignored and its power totally misunderstood.

	All requests from software developers to have DSM native on VAX to take advantage of the new box were ignored.		All requests from software developers to have DSM native on VAX to take advantage of the new box were ignored.

	: This persistent ignorance of customer requests was the base to encourage a customer of mine to invite me:		: This persistent ignorance of customer requests was the base to encourage a customer of mine to invite me:
	:: "If they don't do it join us and we will do it !" [How often have you got the offer to write an OS like this from scratch?]		:: "If they don't do it join us and we will do it !" [How often have you got the offer to write an OS like this from scratch?]
	:: I just couldn't resist and I joined and we wrote it up from point zero on bare boned VAX-750.		:: I just couldn't resist and I joined and we wrote it up from point zero on bare boned VAX-750.
	:: The OS was named VISOS and lived as long as the supported VAX models existed.		:: The OS was named VISOS and lived as long as the supported VAX models existed.

	Some time later DEC presented DSM as layered product on top of VMS. In the beginning performance was dictated by the underlying RMS and didn't reflect the gain in processing power. It moved out of my scope and I didn't care about anymore. Years later the best on my opinion that DEC did was: They sold its unloved product DSM to InterSystems. Not too long before they were sold themselves.		Some time later DEC presented DSM as layered product on top of VMS. In the beginning performance was dictated by the underlying RMS and didn't reflect the gain in processing power. It moved out of my scope and I didn't care about anymore. Years later the best on my opinion that DEC did was: They sold its unloved product DSM to InterSystems. Not too long before they were sold themselves.

	When I joined InterSystems 20 years later I found in Caché again so many details I had implement myself. So I could enjoy a very warm feeling of being at home.		When I joined InterSystems 20 years later I found in Caché again so many details I had implement myself. So I could enjoy a very warm feeling of being at home.

	Caché is today far far away from all its predecessors but still source compatible. The power of Globals is still there. There might be only few constellations where you can't outperform a competing DB.		Caché is today far far away from all its predecessors but still source compatible. The power of Globals is still there. There might be only few constellations where you can't outperform a competing DB.

	:My favorite example out of many others:		:My favorite example out of many others:
	:: GAIA Project run by European Space Agency (ESA)		:: GAIA Project run by European Space Agency (ESA)

	https://www.intersystems.com/de/library/library-item/european-space-agency-chooses-intersystems-cach-database-for-gaia-mission-to-map-milky-way/		https://www.intersystems.com/de/library/library-item/european-space-agency-chooses-intersystems-cach-database-for-gaia-mission-to-map-milky-way/

	This is obviously a quite personal prospective into technologic history and part of a personal story. If you have questions or feel the need to correct me you are welcome. With my location in Vienna (Austria) I always had the impression to watch decisions in Cambridge, Maynard, Boston from far far away at the border of the Milky Way. wink		This is obviously a quite personal prospective into technologic history and part of a personal story. If you have questions or feel the need to correct me you are welcome. With my location in Vienna (Austria) I always had the impression to watch decisions in Cambridge, Maynard, Boston from far far away at the border of the Milky Way. wink

	== Response ==		== Response ==
	Rich Taylor · Aug 29, 2017		Rich Taylor · Aug 29, 2017
	Robert,		Robert,

	Great history lesson! I have a question for you though. As you were there at the beginning or close to it perhaps you might have some insight. I came from a background in MultiValued databases (aka PICK, Universe, Unidata) joining InterSystems in 2008 when they were pushing Cache's ability to migrate those systems.		Great history lesson! I have a question for you though. As you were there at the beginning or close to it perhaps you might have some insight. I came from a background in MultiValued databases (aka PICK, Universe, Unidata) joining InterSystems in 2008 when they were pushing Cache's ability to migrate those systems.
	From the beginning I was amazed at the parallel evolution of both platforms. In fact when I was preparing for my first interviews, having not heard of Cache before, I thought it was some derivative of PICK. Conceptually both MUMPS and PICK share a lot of commonality. Differing in implementation of course. I have long harbored the belief that there had to be some common heritage.		From the beginning I was amazed at the parallel evolution of both platforms. In fact when I was preparing for my first interviews, having not heard of Cache before, I thought it was some derivative of PICK. Conceptually both MUMPS and PICK share a lot of commonality. Differing in implementation of course. I have long harbored the belief that there had to be some common heritage.
	Some white papers or other IP that influenced both. Would you have any knowledge on the how the original developers of MUMPS arrived at the design concepts they embraced? Does the name Don Nelson ring a bell?		Some white papers or other IP that influenced both. Would you have any knowledge on the how the original developers of MUMPS arrived at the design concepts they embraced? Does the name Don Nelson ring a bell?

	Thanks again for the history.		Thanks again for the history.